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Post Info TOPIC: Westbound Empire Builder derails in nowhere Montana


The Forum Celestial Advisor

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Westbound Empire Builder derails in nowhere Montana
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First sign of MIR. News hit YouTube Saturday late afternoon. Then it begins all the fucking confusion as to where exactly the Amtrak train derailed.

I watched one live idiot on YouTube trying to make any sense of the derailment and he was scanning the net to find the latest and kept saying he

couldnt say for sure where it is until some verification. If he looked at the one picture with signal bungalow "East Buelow" and the derailed passenger

cars would be as "pin point" as you can get. Right between Joplin and Chester MT 5 miles from each town. Its nowhere in Montana surrounded

by umungus wheat fields. Highway 2 follows close by so the derailment site easy to get to . Lucky Chester MT had a place to put the Amtrak

survivors as its 50 miles west to Havre which might have a hospital. 3 dead which no surprise looking at the tipped over cars. So now we can

start guessing the cause. WB Builder has to be doing 70-79MPH through this area which not fast enough if you've ridden the Builder through

this part of Montana. The derailment happens before it hits the power switch at East Buelow so the switch has nothing to do with it. That

switch will be a new one soon as BNSF can get to work. Busy BNSF Transcon so cleanup soon as possible. More news on Sunday what happened.

 

Three people are dead and 'well over' 50 are injured after Amtrak train derails in Montana | Daily Mail Online



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Force Majeure

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If its westbound at East Buelow, wouldn't that be a facing point movement?

And, if it really is a westbound trailing point movement with the power going into the single-track, how else do you explain them on their sides like that without overspeed being involved? Usually, passengers will be saying, "The train seemed to be going very fast." The apex of the curve in an equilateral turnout is the switch.

But, if they were on the ground before a trailing point move over the switch, it begins to sound more like broken wheel, truck, or rail. No crossings close to knock the track out-of-gauge.

Southren installed equilateral turnouts when they took out double track every 10 miles between Orange, VA and Atlanta. The intent was being able to run all trains at track speed through the equilaterals (79P-60F). Almost immediately (mid-60s), they put 50 mph speed limits on them. That's what I was told by the old heads. Some of the old heads barely slowed down. Most rode better than going into/out of a conventional passing siding at 40 mph.



-- Edited by Snippy on Sunday 26th of September 2021 09:02:45 AM

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Barely a pulse...

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Sounds like they were all probably havin great fun, until she went in the rhubarb eh.

That is a really bad one.

https://www.roamingaroundtheworld.com/amtrak-empire-builder-train-review/

 



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Force Majeure

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One of those on its side is a SightSeer Lounge. I think Amtrak announced they would not be replaced some time ago. When we rode Empire Builder eastbound, we had the last bedroom on the last SuperLiner. They equipment was almost new and quite an experience riding like being in a caboose looking out the back door. We spent hours doing it.

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Food for thought if we ever get the chance.

I'd have the little boy inside me struggle to rest because want tu see everything.

Have tu book 24 hours rest at the other end.

 



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The Forum Celestial Advisor

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Best/latest story as of late Sunday night. Investigators probe deadly Amtrak derailment in Montana (apnews.com)

Check YouTube for the latest news on this Amtrak derailment whenever you feel like it.



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say what..?

 

Did the switch play some role? It might have been that the front of the train hit the switch and it started fish-tailing and that flipped the back part of the train, Clarke said.



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It fishtailed. Is that a modern railroad term?

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Doggone that local crew, can't they spot cars?



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Cy Valley wrote:

It fishtailed. Is that a modern railroad term?


 It's a young reporter's liberal use of poetic license.

Not knowing the technical vernacular, I'm sure they

meant tu say it might have went "slipsliding away".



-- Edited by Thunderwagon5000 on Monday 27th of September 2021 08:57:23 AM

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Force Majeure

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I wonder if it fish-tailed before it hit the frog pond?

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Cy Valley wrote:

It fishtailed. Is that a modern railroad term?


 As I recall, when doing burnouts as a young buck, the rear tire(s) spinning would let rear of the

car drift to the right or left. (or you could steer if ya had positraction). The titelock couplers keep

the cars together in derailments and causes the cars to jackknife. This jackknifing may be percieved

by someone inside as a fishtail? That would be my guess.



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Think it might be a "Sun-Krink". All reports say it was 80F+ day. If was 85F-88F could cause a sun kink. Happened
before in Montana with a Amtrak train derailment. Over our hot summer in the GPNW and listening to BNSF scanner
many "heat runs' by track inspectors on the Scenic Sub took place. I think 90F is the magic number for most welded
rail on the BNSF in the GPNW. Track worries at 90F or close to it. In Montana maybe 85F. One post from TO is worth reading.

Author: PlyWoody


 

There has not been any information found and posted in the 10 past pages of speculation of any value.  No one has learned what the engineer had to say about what the track looked like in the prior several miles.  To  investigate a high speed train wreck you most look at every inch of the track east for any mark on anything.  A scrap on the head of one spike can start the evidence. You must find where the first wheels came over and off the rail.  When a flange runs over a rail head it will leave a long lasting angular line to a nick on the outer edge of the railhead where it fall on the ties.  The other edge of wheel will also mark the gage side of the other railhead and then the marks of riding on the ties and tie plates continue.  The evidence is still east of this point of derailment.  If something mechanical like brake rigging or shoes falling they will make marks on the track. This train has disc brakes.  It could be miles to the east.  And if that track has wooden planks for farm crossing, that was a good speculation previously offered and cause could be quickly found.  
    I read that BNSF said they had inspected that track 2 days prior which is not at the limit of length of time before new inspection was needed, but why dont they tell us what the inspector took exception to?  What did the conductor have to say about the experience of riding on the ties and stone crashing under his car and did he radio a stop or pull the emergency air?  What did the couplers look like where the cars came apart, was the coupler casting broken?  They are all type F tightlocked couplers.  What traffic passed over this track prior and were those trains immediately stopped and given a complete mechanical inspection as soon as BNSF dispatcher receive notice of the derailment?  The investigation must start immediately when a passenger train derails like this at speed.
    I'm not making any speculation with the above questions but just saying what we need to learn to help find the cause, but I will say the cause is mile or miles prior to the east switch of the end of the siding and it had nothing to do with that switch.  This derailment happened on single track long before the switch.  Remember, the engine and several cars passed over that switch without any problem.   A sun kink with rail under maximum compression can cause the rail to tilt with the head bowing out and base lifting the inside or gage spikes, and this can happen under a moving train causing a wheel to fall in at 58.5" gage and then other wheels follow. This can hapen if the ties are real rotted and the spikes loose.  The UP found Lag bolts broken and went back to using spikes usage account oil train wreck.   That will leave evidence after the wreck as the spikes that were lifted by the tilted rail will still have their heads way above the base of rail.  But from location of the first wheel spreading the rails can progress eastward and drop cars preceeding this point.  But those spikes will be changed by the speading rail and the evidence will be there if it was a sun kink compression. I recommend that track rail be anchored much hotter that present norm, and always be under stretch up to 100 degree F rail temperture.  A pull apart is found by electric circuit but over compressed rail can not be measured.  The fact of having new ties there ready to install is not a good sign for the speculation that this was a sun kink even at normal temperrture range. I would not expect a company with that profit to have track in that bad a condition for this to become the cause.  If that becomes the cause than it boiles back to the true cause being the bad advice from H. H. Hunter.

If the NTSB did see some evidence of track defect they certinely can not say that until the final review and report in written in a year or so.  That is what law suits will be based on in this sad case.  


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Force Majeure

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This is where the NTSB says the derailment started. Maybe, 800 feet east of the switch in a slight curve. Railway Age article says "3 miles west of Joplin, MT." This is almost exactly two miles west of Joplin. It is just past the area of a wash or a gully or whatever the locals would call that. Only mention it because sometimes spots like that are headaches wet or dry:

goo.gl/maps/hRx6XtecJgi9squ19

I think this is the tie pile Callvin was referring to earlier.

 

Here is a word vomit of paragraphs:

www.railwayage.com/passenger/intercity/amtrak-empire-builder-derails-in-montana/



-- Edited by Snippy on Wednesday 29th of September 2021 05:37:56 PM

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Some addition words of experience/wisdom from "PlyWoody" on sun krinks.

Date: 09/29/21 17:08
Re: Amtrak #7, the telling images
Author: PlyWoody


 

Funnelfan,
You need a special thermometer that measures the actual rail temperature which is what is important.  The air temperature is only a portion of the consideration.  The sun makes the rail temperature much higher and could be 35+ degrees greater F.  Do a Wikipedia search on information of railroad rail temperature.

If this track had received any disturbance of its ballast in the prior week, that 79 normal speed should have been restricted. 

Welded rail track should have one further foot of ballast at the end of the ties before it tapers down as additional weight to discurage any track sun kink.  Photo I see of this track is far inferior for main line as the ballast edge drops off from end of ties and does not have the extra foot off the end of ties.  The condition of each ties will be exactly inspected by the NTSB.  The engineering department of BNSF should be very nervious at this point.  
 
Good news is that NTSB gave Ok to BNSF to cleanup this mess and fix track and get trains moving again. The hot Z-trains detoured over the ex-NP
line through Mandan and Bismark to MRL Laurel MT to Spokane/Hauser. A Z-train in the siding at Skykomish tonight waiting for the 1st eastbound
Empire Builder in 4 days running a few minutes late. 


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Force Majeure

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Do a Goggle search on the 1986 wreck of the 611running sun kink on Kloeckner rail broke 13 bolts in a poorly maintained frog. Well, NTSB never really said it that clearly.

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