Railroaders place to shoot the shit.

Members Login
Username 
 
Password 
    Remember Me  
Post Info TOPIC: The NIMBYs will be there en masses!
Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
The NIMBYs will be there en masses!
Permalink  
 


And you know damn well they'll have their say. Railroaders know when that bunch gets together all the talk is how awful railroads are... Yet not a one acknowledges, or admits without 'the railroads,' they wouldn't have the lives they have, with all the imports they own... Damn near everything moves by rail, including the imported cars that NIMBYs drive!


Originally published December 12, 2012 at 8:50 PM | Page modified December 13, 2012 at 6:04 AM

Big turnout expected for coal-transport project hearing

Several thousand people will gather at the Washington State Convention Center Thursday to weigh in on plans to export Rocky Mountain coal to Asia through ports in Washington and Oregon.

Seattle Times environment reporter

Coal-export hearing

The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, the state Department of Ecology and Whatcom County will host a hearing from 4 to 7 p.m. Thursday at the Washington State Convention Center about plans to build a port outside Ferndale to export Rocky Mountain coal to Asia.

Speakers will be chosen by lottery at the top of each hour and limited to two minutes of testimony. Written comments also will be accepted.

At this stage, the agencies aren't asking whether participants support or oppose the project. They're looking for advice to help them gauge what issues a pending multiyear environmental review should address.

More information: www.ecy.wa.gov/geographic/gatewaypacific

The fight over coal trains in the Pacific Northwest pulls into Seattle on Thursday.

Several thousand people will gather at the Washington State Convention Center to offer their thoughts on plans to export Rocky Mountain coal to Asia through ports in Washington and Oregon.

So many people are expected that the hearing already has been postponed once. The hosts Whatcom County, the state Department of Ecology and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers knew they needed a bigger venue.

"Everything about this comment period has been unprecedented ... at least as far as the scope of interest and participation," said Ecology spokesman Larry Altose.

While there are at least five proposals to build shipping terminals in Washington and Oregon to ferry coal from Wyoming and Montana to energy-hungry Asia, Thursday's hearing is, ostensibly, about just one. A subsidiary of SSA Marine wants to construct a port outside Ferndale, known as the Gateway Pacific Terminal, to ship 48 million tons of coal abroad each year.

Already, more than 9,000 people from Friday Harbor to Spokane have testified at hearings or written letters, some in support of new terminal jobs but most expressing concern about everything from increased traffic caused by long coal trains to the climate-change impacts of sending cheap fossil fuel to China.

The interest is especially unusual when you consider the government is only taking input about what it should consider during an environmental review of the project. That review could take two more years.

"I think it's a really passionate issue," said Kelly Enstrom, who works for a public-relations firm that represents businesses, politicians and labor groups supporting the terminal proposal. Her group says the terminal would create jobs, boost trade and promote a U.S. resource in Asia that they could otherwise get from Australia.

"Supporters believe we can protect the environment and we can do this right," she said.

Dan Jaffe isn't so sure. The professor of atmospheric and environmental chemistry at the University of Washington Bothell is trying to analyze air pollution generated by a potential increase in trains carrying coal. Still, he said, "speaking for myself, I think it's not at all a good idea. It's the wrong direction for us to be going in for the planet, the state, the region."

One of the central questions of the debate is whether the federal government will evaluate the impacts of each project separately or whether it will also examine the cumulative environmental consequence of bring up to 140 million tons of coal through Washington and Oregon to be burned in Asia.

While opponents, led by environmental and climate-action groups, have spent the last two years rallying opposition to coal exports, pro-coal supporters are now engaged, too.

In previous hearings across the state, where testimony was first-come, first-served, some opponents arrived hours in advance and held spots for like-minded colleagues. Some supporters, in turn, paid people to stand in line to make sure their representatives got to testify. This time, the three agencies hosting Seattle's hearing will switch to a lottery system. On Thursday, they'll let those in attendance enter random drawings at the top of each hour of the three-hour event for a total of about 150 two-minute speaking slots. The agencies also will accept written comments.

Gateway supporters, including the Association of Washington Business, some unions and the mayor of Ferndale, want each project studied independently. Environmentalists, the governor of Oregon, the Department of Ecology and Seattle city leaders have urged the Corps to consider the cumulative impact of all the proposals.



__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.



500 - Internal Server Error

Status: Offline
Posts: 14589
Date:
Permalink  
 

The Most Interesting Man In The World - I don't always read uke's threads No really I don't always read Uke's threads.



Attachments
__________________

© Equal Opportunity Annoyer

Troll The Anti-Fast Freight Freddie

 

 

 

 

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

Fuc... Shit! Never mind!

__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.



The Forum Celestial Advisor

Status: Offline
Posts: 7796
Date:
Permalink  
 

This flood of Wyoming coal is going to exit the GPNW somewhere.
If Cherry Point wins the deal...The BNSF Bellingham Sub is going
to see 24-30 trains a day of coal/tank trains/manifest and local
traffic. That almost 3X what the line has ever experienced. From
Everett north, Marysville 3 miles to the north, is now 70K in pop.
The tracks divide the town in half and what cant change is the
25MPH over bridge 38.3 (Ebey Slough) which sits on the very
south edge of the city limits. So every train northward into
Marysville pokes along at 25mph until the train is off the bridge
which means about 4 major street crossings until you start to
see "some serious giddy-up". There would have to be some
serious co-operation with the railroad and the state to build
several over/underpasses in Marysville. Next up the line is the
Mt Vernon-Burlington (MVB) cities. MVB has grown big in the
last 10 years (40-50K) and again the railroad cuts both towns
in half. A positive is that through freight can do 45-50mph
thru both cities. Still see the need for an underpass/overpass in
several locations. OK..Bellingham my home town...well Bham
is not a city that is "cut-in-half" whenever a train rolls through
town. Very easy and reliable routes to get around any grade
crossings. One thing Bham has nowdays, is a lot of affluent
persons owning view property of which in most cases, sits
above the soon to be busier than hell railroad tracks.
Next up the line is Ferndale. I lived there for a few years
in the early 80's. Another town with a by-pass around the
RR crossings but there are two crossings that get a shitload
of traffic but those that have to wait there for very long can
make a B-Line to the bypass. The rails in Whatcom County
go through basically farmland. Dozens of those "farmers-
crossings" that the "5-10" minute rule doesnt seem to matter
much. If this whole thing get awarded and into high gear,
the public can figure on it taking years for necessary bridges/
overpasses/underpasses to be built. So it will be like it always
has, the railroad gets its way.

__________________

If you are in a horror movie, you make bad decisions, its what you do.

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

The 'sea of red' anti railroad folks were there to make their point known. They waved signs, and spoke of the impact (environmental, social, and personal) of increased rail traffic (extra coal trains) through Seattle. I've never counted the number of grade crossings in Seattle proper, but I'd imagine that the impact has been less than ten years ago, when the last population spurt occured.

Once the rails make that big right turn at Vancouver (WA) and start heading north towards Canada (Roberts Bank, the number, and disruption to grade crossings, and towns and cities only increases.

BNSF, and to a lesser degree UP will need to do a lot of work to convince an already skeptical public. These anti-rail people have spent a lot of money, time, and energy to convince everybody that their personal interest should be placed ahead of the state in consideration of the jobs, tax benefits, and handing off the coal to another state (Oregon).

There are more alternative sites available to BNSF besides Cherry Point however. The rails follow the Columbia River quite closely as they make that big right turn at Vancouver. Vancouver city would love to have the coal terminal, because they already have a port, which is on land owned by the city.

Multiple ports exist on the river as well, past Vancouver for quite a stretch of the Columbia running northwards as well. Kalama for instance. That city has a viable port, and they'd love to have the revenue from the taxes, local jobs, benefits to local businesses, and more. (The railroad will spend extra getting this project done as well).

When it comes right down to the real issues... No matter whether it's here, there or somewhere, coal trains will be running towards the Pacific Ocean. And the coal will be loaded on to ships bound for Asia where the coal will be burned.

__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.



Force Majeure

Status: Offline
Posts: 13415
Date:
Permalink  
 

Coal Trains run best when they run east towards the Atlantic Ocean. Right, Calhoun?

Snippy supports the "sea of red".



__________________

Going Back to 1850 and 1933 all at once!

 

Freddie Kruegerwrote 
2h ago
My prediction which I stole from someone else.... Harris 52.7 percent of the vote and takes all the swing states...... You read it here.....


Upgraded Condition?

Status: Offline
Posts: 5187
Date:
Permalink  
 

Cant for the life of me figger out why someone would want to try to burn dirt, when they could have high grade BTU scorching heat from a premium coal.



__________________

 This is the official end of my post.  

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

I'll pass that along. Ta 2LARRCO. Their opinion may differ however, since the coal usually originates from mines located on BNSF lines, then travels to the Pacific ports via 'home' road rails. The bulk of the revenue generated moving that coal from mine ta port, goes ta Uncle Warren & Co. (with no bonus for Buckethead).

2LARRCO could of course hand the coal trains to Canada, closer to the northernmost border point enroute, or turn the trains over to Union Pacific for transport to Oregon, and its coastal (yet to be built) terminal, where that BNSF originated coal would be loaded on to ships bound for China.

So...fun times ahead. Everybody has an opinion on this, but no two opinions matter if there's no money ta be turned over ta the power brokers...

__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.



Upgraded Condition?

Status: Offline
Posts: 5187
Date:
Permalink  
 

Lessee, when figgering in the cost of transportation, and short term storage areas etc, if you were buying coal from a long distance away,

would you rather buy 1 ship of coal or 2 ships to get the same heat as the 1 ship?

Its a fawwkin no brainer..youd buy the 1 ship load. Less ta move, less ta store.

Instead of running 25-30 coal trains a day you could run 12-15.....Thats something the tree huggers could appreciate!

 



__________________

 This is the official end of my post.  



Upgraded Condition?

Status: Offline
Posts: 5187
Date:
Permalink  
 

Good black east coast bituminous (like a 30 yr old single malt McCallen) against Powder river dirt (like a bottle of Thunderbird from last week).

Just aint no comparison.



__________________

 This is the official end of my post.  



Upgraded Condition

Status: Offline
Posts: 8873
Date:
Permalink  
 

Loads east, empties west. For the lake, loads west, empties east. Truly, in my part of the country, I had a little trouble with the concept of loads going east, they were always west around here, C&O, PRR then N&W, NYC, all of them going to Lake Erie, loaded coal trains going through my hometown toward the lake, today's LAMCO-hated WVA2NDary.

Anyway. . .

__________________

JO

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

2LARRCO is smarter'n the tree huggers. By a long shot. They've been moving coal through here after most of the average NIMBY disappears from trackside. Like when it's dark, or raining heavily... Ten, twelve, fifteen trains staged one after another.

They're bound for Canada. Roberts Bank. Look it up on yer Google global thing... Zoom in...there's always huge piles of coal there, and at least TWO, maybe three ships at anchor, or waiting ta be loaded.

Not all that coal arrives from BNSF mines. Canadian mines also feed the piles, which fill the ships. On a global scale... The impact is immense! The Chinese buy most of that coal, with Korea probably second, then maybe India, and Japan...

Money. Money. Money. How many coal trains ta fill one break-bulk carrier? 2LARRCO knows. But they ain't sharin' that info!

__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

From all the hype over this 'big happening,' about the horrors of coal trains, the turn-out was somewhat less than expected... Earlier reports of 4,000+ were an overstatement.

Downtown Seattle at 4:00-PM? Go right ahead! Talk about horror...more like terror!


Originally published December 13, 2012 at 9:31 PM | Page modified December 14, 2012 at 6:39 AM

Coal-export hearing packed, mostly by opponents

More than 2,300 people turned out at the Washington State Convention Center to share their thoughts on a proposal to export coal through ports in the Northwest.

Seattle Times staff reporters

Information

Information about the proposed Gateway Pacific terminal: ecy.wa.gov/geographic/gatewaypacific

To comment online: eisgatewaypacificwa.gov/get-involved/online-scoping-meeting

Most Popular Comments
Hide / Show comments
They'll make a big show of listening, then go ahead and do whatever pays them the most. MORE
The terminal backers don't care about anyone else. They don't care about the 10,000... MORE
I don't want their deals. And I wan't the Salmon back. MORE

They came carrying drums and American flags, decked out in soccer gear and cowboy hats and divided themselves by the color of their shirts.

More than 2,300 people packed two rooms at the Washington State Convention Center on Thursday to tell government officials what they thought about plans to export coal from Rocky Mountain states through ports in the Northwest.

The hearing, sponsored by Whatcom County, the state Department of Ecology and the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, was the last of several around the region. It asked the public what issues should be studied when the government kicks off an environmental review next month of plans to ship 48 million tons of coal to Asia through a terminal at Cherry Point outside Ferndale in Whatcom County.

Supporters indicated study should focus only on that one terminal.

"Should the Cherry Point site be scrutinized? Absolutely," said Shahraim Allen, chair of the Washington State Legislative Board of the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen, who, like many coal-terminal supporters, wore a green shirt. "Should the impact on Puget Sound be studied? Without a doubt. But that is where the studies should stop."

But with the vast majority of the crowd and speakers decked out in red anti-coal shirts, discussion often centered on more than just the so-called Gateway Pacific Terminal. It included concerns about the ecological risks of other proposed Northwest coal ports, from the Oregon side of the Columbia River to southwest Washington.

If all those terminals were built, they would ship more than 140 million tons of coal a year to China and elsewhere, making the Northwest the country's largest exporter of the fossil fuel.

Speakers worried about health risks from diesel fumes and coal dust or from the pollutants that would waft across the Pacific Ocean when the coal was burned in China, India or some place else. A Muslim woman spoke about how her faith urged care for the planet. A cowboy who drove straight from his Montana ranch complained about having to drive so far to be heard. One speaker sang a dirge, another banged a drum and a group of grandmothers testified in jingles.

"Oh we're a gaggle of grannies, urging you off of your fannies," they sang during their testimony. "We're raising our voice, we need a new choice: no more coal."

Rachel Howell, a 12-year-old Queen Anne girl, said adults already were destroying much of what she loved from her home state, from salmon and oysters to the skiing at Snoqualmie Pass, which is threatened by a warming planet.

"This is the future you're creating for us if you let these terminals be built," she said, earning shouts and whistles and applause from a crowd that repeatedly had been urged to keep its responses silent. "It's pretty simple. Even I can understand it."

A similar sentiment was offered by 13-year-old Will Priest. The eighth-grader at Islander Middle School on Mercer Island said that in 50 years he may have grandchildren.

"And I hope to not have to explain to them why our leaders let coal be taken out from the ground in Montana and put on long trains past our beautiful rivers and along our Puget Sound then shipped across the ocean," he said.

The day started with dueling rallies and news conferences, as coal supporters, including the head of the Whatcom County Chamber of Commerce, several labor groups and mayors, urged the government and public to get beyond emotion and look at the specifics of the Gateway project, which they said would provide jobs that otherwise would go elsewhere.

"It's often hard to argue facts versus philosophy," said David Freiboth, with the King County Labor Council.

One longtime railroad worker said coal from the Powder River Basin in Montana and Wyoming contains far less sulfur and other pollutants than coal from overseas. And that's where Asia will turn to meet its needs, he said, if the coal doesn't come from the U.S.

Larry Brown, legislative director for a local aerospace-machinists union, said increasing trade boosts the economy across the state.

"Washington is a trade state, and when the state expands trade across the Pacific ... it benefits all Washingtonians," he said.

At a far larger rally outside sponsored by environmentalists, which included giant salmon, a fake polar bear and an inflatable giant hand holding an inhaler, speakers urged the government to look at the cumulative impacts of coal.

Jeremiah Julius, a Lummi tribal leader, worried about the desecration of sacred burial grounds near the site of the terminal.

A Tulalip leader worried about increased ship traffic, which could cause a spill from existing oil tankers or an accident with a tanker-load of coal. Earlier this month, a bulk carrier just across the border in British Columbia smashed into a coal-terminal conveyor, causing a coal spill.

"We can do better," said King County Executive Dow Constantine.

The crowds then filed into two rooms at the convention center, where speakers were selected by lottery. Two moderators tried to silence hooting, clapping and hissing and urged the audience to show its support by quietly waving signs or their hands. The discourse remained largely respectful.

Seattle Mayor Mike McGinn asked the Army Corps to evaluate impacts from coal trains that would travel through the city's poorer communities, slowing street traffic, potentially spewing dust and perhaps harming water quality.

A retired environmental engineer from the Environmental Protection Agency urged the agency to consider ocean impacts from the carbon dioxide that gets taken up by the seas when coal eventually is burned in Asia.

The testimony was often one-sided. The first two dozen speakers in one room, were, to a person, opposed to coal exports.

One opponent, Janice Tufte, said she agreed with supporters that a terminal would bring more jobs for respiratory therapists to deal with health problems from coal dust and train exhaust, and for consultants to help repair environmental damage.

"At the end of the day, I believe God buried coal for a reason," said the Rev. Peter Illyn, of Longview. "We need to leave it there."

But there was at least some back and forth. When a fisherman complained about diesel exhaust from coal trains, a locomotive engineer later testified that fishing boats produce similar exhaust from similar engines.

A green-shirted Nicole Grant, with the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, said that with so much of the world still powered by coal, her workers need the good-paying, coal-related jobs, which could lead to stronger families and the kind of "education that leads to innovation and energy."

"Our electricians would be just as happy to install solar and wind, but at this time that's a minority of how power is generated in the world," she said.

She was followed by another union speaker, a red-shirted Allison Ostrer, an interpreter with the Washington Federation of State Employees, who said Grant hit on exactly the problem. Unions, Ostrer said, shouldn't settle for coal work but instead should demand corporations bring more clean-energy jobs.

The three government agencies overseeing the hearing will continue to accept written testimony until mid-January. Then they will start an environmental review that could take up to two years.

Craig Welch: 206-464-2093



__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.



Upgraded Condition

Status: Offline
Posts: 8873
Date:
Permalink  
 

Hey, Uke, was that Snippy I saw lurking there in the background? You know he would be at any protest protesting coal going to the Pacific.

Say, you didn't see Clavalin anywhere, did you?



__________________

JO

Uke


Cured

Status: Offline
Posts: 12540
Date:
Permalink  
 

We're checking the video as we go ta press. We'll get back to ya as soon as we investigate further. Thanks for your patience.

The Staphph

__________________

Hmm. That address doesnt look right.
It looks like the link pointing here was faulty.

Gah. Your tab just crashed.

1 2  >  Last»  | Page of 2  sorted by
 
Quick Reply

Please log in to post quick replies.

Chatbox
Please log in to join the chat!